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Karl Rove 15, Brennan 6, Pakistan 4, Us 4, Nancy Pelosi 4, Paul Krugman 4, Howard Wolfson 4, Duracell 3, Aflac 3, Iowa 3, Boston 3, Washington 3, Larry 3, John Boehner 3, Obama 3, Harry Reid 3, Chris Hayes 3, George W. Bush 3, John Brennan 3, Hans 2,
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  MSNBC    NOW With Alex Wagner    News/Business. Alex Wagner.  
   Forces driving the day's stories. New.  

    February 8, 2013
    9:00 - 10:00am PST  

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or treat gas with these after you get it. now that's like sunblock before or sun burn cream later. oh, somebody out there's saying, now i get it! take beano before and there'll be no gas. we all work remotely so this is a big deal, our first full team gathering! i wanted to call on a few people. ashley, ashley marshall... here. since we're often all on the move, ashley suggested we use fedex office to hold packages for us. great job. [ applause ] thank you. and on a protocol note, i'd like to talk to tim hill about his tendency to use all caps in emails. [ shouting ] oh i'm sorry guys. ah sometimes the caps lock gets stuck on my keyboard. hey do you wanna get a drink later? [ male announcer ] hold packages at any fedex office location.
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does post-modern warfare call for post-modern civil lib snerts it's friday, february 8, and this is "now." joining us today new york city deputy mayor howard wolfson, editor of "the new republic" frankly for, politico white house reporter carrie rudolph brown making her debut, and our old hand bloomberg white house correspondent hans nichol. there isn't much overlap between critics of george w. bush and barack obama unless you are talking counterterrorism. members of code pink, a group founded during the bush administration to protest the policies of waterboard and detention made their voices heard at yesterday's confirmation hearing for john brennan as cia director. >> they won't even tell congress what country we are killing
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children in. >> please -- >> senator feinstein. >> if you could please expedite the removal. >> more important than the children of pakistan and yemen? are they more important? do your job! >> the hearing serve as a public discussion of the most controversial counterterrorism policies that began under president george w. bush and, in part, have continued and expanded under president obama. brennan's defense of the secrecy surrounding the administration's most questionable program, targeted assassinations using drone aircraft, was as opaque as the program itself. >> what we need to do is optimize transparency on these issues, but at the same time optimize secrecy and the protection of our national security. i don't think that it's one or the other. it's trying to optimize both of them. >> some senators, including ron widen and angus king, pushed brennan to explain the legal at and justification for assassinating american citizens abroad. >> every american has the right to know when their government believes it's allowed to kill them. >> i understand you can't have
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co-commanders in chief, but having the executive being the prosecutor, the judge, the jury, and the executioner all in one is very contrary to traditions and the laws of this country. >> brennan argued essentially that the ends justify the means. >> the decision that is are made are to take actions so that we prevent a future action so we protect american lives. that is an inherently executive branch function to determine and the commander in chief and the chief executive has the responsibility to protect the welfare, well-being of american citizens. >> while little seems to stand in the way of brennan becoming the next director of the cia, the hearings proved that america's top intelligence gatherers are still grappling with the rationale behind some of the country's most controversial counterterrorism policies. indeed, even regarding tactic that is have long since been discontinued, brennan was able to offer little clarity.
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>> my question is this. in your opinion, does waterboarding constitute torture? >> the attorney general has referred to waterboarding as torture. many people have referred to it as torture. >> do you have a personal opinion as to whether water board issing torture? >> i have a personal opinion that waterboarding is rep rehencible and something that should not be done. >> as to the ultimate question, whether or not we are moving away from american ideals relating to justice and civil liberties, the argument is far from settled. in the wall street journal today john yu, the justice department official that handled interrogation techniques during the bush administration writes, "rather than capture terrorists, which produces the most valuable intelligence on al qaeda, mr. obama has relied almost exclusively on drone attacks, but those deaths from the sky violate personal liberty far more than the waterboarding of three al qaeda leaders ever did." franklin, having watched the hearing or having seen it or seen excerpts of it just now, do you think the country thinks differently about the president
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and our intelligence gathering in this country? >> isn't it a bit rich to see congress posturing like this when they've done such a terrible job of oversight over the course of the last couple of years? >> they're the ones with the hands on the spiget theoretically. >> i don't have a problem with drones. i think drones represent an advance in the history of warfare that -- it's also a bit rich to see john yu pilot criticisms. it's very clear that one of the promises that the obama administration made when they came in is they would take the obama policies and run them through a filter where they would legitimatize them, they would add protections that would enhance civil liberties. they've let these programs continue in nontransparent ways. they've done little to establish rationale regulations of them, very clear rules that would make us feel better that they were
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doing a better job of taking this tremendous power that they have and using it in the most responsible way. >> well, i think one of the things that was really remarkable on the hearing yesterday, howard, was the gray -- the sort of opacity, and the fact that john brennan himself didn't know if he would call waterboarding torture. >> i think he did know. i didn't think he was going to say. >> they very much are still grappling. the playbook is still being written. so it's sort of -- the ethics around it are still -- we're still sort of thinking about it, and in the meantime drone strikes continue today. there was a drone strike in pakistan that killed seven and injured six others. it's as if the warfare has gotten far ahead of where we actually are in terms of our moral compass. >> there was an extraordinary "new york times" front page story a couple of months back that basically detailed president obama going over a kill list where he would personally get the recommendations about when which targets just -- is which targets could be filled if we found them and him sort of strike aing few off and checking boxes next to the ones that he was comfortable
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with, and i was sort of expecting all my democratic friends, all of my friends on the left p to howl and say what an outrage this was. i could only imagine if this is a front page story about george bush and dick cheney going over a kill list late at night. democrats have mostly given the president a pass on this, and republicans are mostly okay with the policy of killing terrorists with drones. as a result, as a country, we are allowing this to happen. people are basically okay with it. >> what's interesting to me is there is very little bipartisanship in washington. wonderful people can both attest. david brooks, i'll quote him, basically making the arg utility for what obama is doing. he writes, it would be nice machiavelli writes if a political leader could practice the christian virtues like charity, mercy, and gentleness and still provide for his people. the virtuous leader is compelled to do hard things. the leader who does good things cannot always be good himself. sometimes bad acts produce good
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outcomes." carrie. >> i think it's -- even yesterday at the hearing senators were not necessarily taking issue with the use of drones themselves. a lot of it was about the secrecy and the lack of transparency that the white house and this administration, past administrations, a lot of pent-up frustration was on display yesterday. you have a post-9/11 world where a lot of these programs happen in secret. there's not even an acknowledgment of whether a memo exists or doesn't exist. a lot of that pent-up frustration came out yesterday, and it wasn't so much. i mean, there are questions being raised about the program itself, but even if you ask folks like even franklin. frank said the use of drones themselves is not necessarily the biggest point of contention. it's whether we as a public know exactly what the government is doing. >> well, i would argue that, let's say there was greater transparency. i don't think the discussion and the debate goes away. then you really get to the nugget of the argument. is it okay to do bad things to get bad people?
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>> to howard's point, i think the article came out after the election. after the election you'll hear more criticism from democrats. if you don't hear the next two years, are you going to hear leading intu a primary. we have no idea who is going to get in the field, and i know we're criticized for talking about the next election, but this will be an issue that wi we ferret out in iowa, new hampshire. everyone will have to be on record saying if you are going to run for the democratic primary nomination, where do you stand on drone attacks? remember, obama was to the right of hillary clinton during the xanl for going into pakistan and not -- he -- >> john mccain. >> on pakistan he was, right. this shouldn't be that big of a surprise that he is hawkish. this has been one of the central tensions, but sort of aspects of the obama presidency. >> i hear what you're saying. at the same time, you know, he came into office under the banner of no longer will there be black sites. we are closing gitmo. extraordinary rendition. these kind of practices put in place by george w. bush. that is going to be -- we're going to close that chapter in american history. what this reveals is that that chapter is far from being
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closed. it's still being written. >> we are still arguing based on the movie "zero dark thirty" whether or not enhanced interrogation, torture, helped us get osama bin laden, and you hear conflicting reports about whether or not that was true. if you ask the average person, does interrogation enhance interrogation, does torture work? you'll get ten different anz. we are as a country very much grappling with these questions and trying to sort of move our way through the maze, and i think at the end of the day the chief executive determines that is he going to err on the side of the safety of the american people. if there is a judgment call to be made, he is going to say i will do what i need to do to protect this country, and i think george bush would have said that, and it's pretty clear that barack obama is saying that. >> franklin, i'm curious to know what you think of this. i think one of the reasons the president hasn't been pushed on this as much as he perhaps could have been is because the left has given i won't say a pass, but they've leaned back. >> they've given him a pass. >> and i was trying to sort of better understand why that might be, and i think it's two-fold.
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one is if the left decides that these tactics are bad, it is then a reput yags of president obama and what he stands for. then if the left decides these tactics are acceptable, then it's coming to terms with the fact that we are doing perhaps terrible, bad things, unconstitutional things in the name of national security. >> drone attacks have also allowed us to wind down wars in afghanistan and iraq. thief allowed us to prosecute al qaeda in a way that has -- doesn't require us putting boots on the ground. >> lead footprint. >> it's the lead footprint. it's consistent with the overall obama gastalt that the left is comfortable with. it also buys the left political space on iraq and afghanistan. obama -- i mean, granted, the country is exhausted by these wars, but there haven't been any traditional attack that is you see levelled against a democrat for winding down a war and for -- it's allowed him to project strength, and it's brought him an incredible amount
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of political space. >> in terms of the sort of hoops, intellectual hoops that you have to jump through, if you are a member of the progressive left and president obama represented a sea change in terms of national security policy, i will go back to what the economist wrote. as mr. obama's second term national team takes shape, the same dmrema will confront them as face mr. bush all those years ago. is the country made safer when enemies are killed or when they're taken alive. can either course be taken while preserving the privacy of law that makes america america. that's the long game-short game. drone attacks increase radicalism on the ground. >> there's the fact that drone attacks have such ease of use, and we are using them not just to get leadership. we're using them on an everyday basis. part of it has to do with just that the distance between the actual warfare itself and the people who are pulling the trigger, and you want there to be some regulation. you want there to be some check
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on executive power there. not just some guy in the basement of the white house -- >> with a kill list. >> with a kill list. >> i'm not sure he is in the basement of the white house. i think he is probably in the roosevelt room, but what do i know? >> the point about brennan is there was a ton of power concentrated in one guy and will continue to be concentrated. >> if the drone program continues to be under the ages of the cia and not go to defense, then john brennan remains the man. we have to take a break, but when we come back, yesterday attorney general eric holder reiterated the white house's plans and hopes for comprehensive gun reform. >> the administration's plan, which i helped the vice president and others to develop, in which the president announced last month includes a series of 23 executive actions. the justice department and other federal agencies are working to implement. along with a range of legislative proposal that is we've called upon congress to pass and to pass without delay. >> emphasis on delay.
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bottom line is this, people, we have a lot of work to do. what we've learned over the last four years, at least what i have learned over the last four years, is that it won't be smooth, it won't be simple, there will be frustrations, there will be times where you guys are mad at me, and i'll
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occasionally read about it, and as a byproduct of doing that good work and keeping that focus i would expect that nancy pelosi is going to be speaker again pretty soon. >> speaking at the house democratic policy retreat in virginia yesterday president obama looked into his crystal ball predicting the democrats will take back control of the house "pretty soon." the reality of democrats seizing the lower chamber is a bit more sober. house democrats need to pick up 17 seats to retake the majority, and according to politico, just four republican encome bents represent districts that lean democratic while 15 democrats will be defending their seats in areas that tilt republican. redistricting has not helped. the redrawn districts in 2010 left 109 republican seats more secure compared with just 67 democratic seats that were made safer. the 2012 election bore the fruit of those changes. the cook political report found that while house republicans won just 49% of the popular vote, they took 54% of house seats.
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the political reality, however, may matter more than the actual numbers. jeremy peters writes in "the "new york times"" house democrats are starting to appreciate a new political reality that few of them expected. they matter. with democrats now in control of 200 seats and republicans often sharply split on big issues like spending and taxes, democrats -- democratic votes have been decisive in getting major legislation through the house. given this republican elders have to wonder. how strong is a majority if it is fractured? carrie, it is a very interesting byproduct of the intra-party skism that is happening. jerry peters talks about arguments missed the parties over the fiscal debate, but surely those same arguments will come to the fore as the house tackles immigration or gun control, presume it gets to the house. the democrats and the house now matter. nancy pelosi has some amount. she's not wielding the speaker's gavel, but she is not someone to
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be marginalized. >> i covered the health care law in 2009 and 2010, and she was sort of masterful in terms of eating her conference together on extraordinarily divisive issue, but the message is that, you know, vice president biden, that obama delivered yesterday at the retreat was a political message. it was -- this is going to be tough, but you gee have to stick together. the politics on gun control, in particular, is not what it was in 1994, and you need to sort of rethink the way these politics are and really buck up and i think it was speaking directly to the fact that there are a lot of regional differences in the democratic caucus, but if they stick together, they may be able to do something. >> let's be clear. the president is saying pretty soon. that wasn't a prediction. that was a punt. pretty soon in political years doesn't mean anything. that means actually that he doesn't think they're going to win it in two years. the president wants to say we're going to take back the house and do it in two years. that's a prediction. the president didn't say that. i was out there with the
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president. the best thing about that was seeing the different lawmakers and what they were wearing. nancy pelosi, of course, in her peach jacket. jim mcdermott clearly crush it in a soccer jersey, one of the sweaty ones. it was well done. mcdermott on the back. >> i'm glad you threw in -- >> it was a white jersey. i don't know if it was a seattle team. i don't know what their colors are. i should know that. >> it looked like a bayern munich engineers where i. >> let me talk about the differences. he is relying. the president got landmark legislation through in the first term, but there was very little half dolphing to nancy pelosi. there is something to be said for being many the mud of congress and making it work, making it -- push it across the threshold. i wonder if you think, hans, this relationship based upon, you know, the recent outreach is going to be changed for the second term. >> so it's not real outreach, right? he just went to the retreat. when he starts playing golf with them on the regular basis, which is the consistent thing you hear from house democrats on why they're not brought in, and when
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they're brought into the conversation earlier, not just at the end when they're forced take a tough vote, that's when we'll know it changed. you don't want to ding the president too much for not having too many ice cream socials, but there hasn't been a great deal of -- most of the terms have not been quite dictated on missouri, but the president has told them what they're going to do. >> it hasn't mattered with the house democrats. the house democrats have assumed the old mantle of the house republicans. they are well organized. there's very little disent. they're a well-oiled machine even without obama p, you know, playing the back nine with them. >> does he have a better or worse relationship with senate democrats? we look at it as fallen in life with the proposals that the president hadz laid out on gun control. harry reid is in charge of that in the senate and has not fall news 10 lock step with the white house priorities, howard. >> it's easier when are you in the minority to sort of just go along. when you are in the majority, it's a little bit of a greater responsibility. harry reid has to make the
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decision whether or not to bring these bills to the floor. there are marginal members in his caucus that might not want to take these issues up. he is responsible for them in some sense. i do believe the mayor is very much involved in this issue. we've been spending a lot of time lobbying members of congress, members of the senate on both republicans and democrats. i do believe that the senate is going to take these issues up. i do believe harry reid is going to bring comprehensive gun bill to the floor. maybe in different pieces. it may be one package. that will be his decision. i do believe something is going to pass in a bipartisan way out of the senate. you saw politico reporting there was a bipartisan group, republicans and democrats from rural and urban states who are working on a comprehensive package on a background checks. i thinkure going to see something get through the senate, and then i think you will have house republicans -- not the majority of them. some number. 20, 30, 40. who will be feeling intense pressure from their districts on this issue. they are going to go to their speaker and their leadership and say, look, if we don't get a volt on this issue, i will not be back, and if i'm not back,
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you will not be speaker. so we may not need 150 or 170 republicans to vote for this. where he we may not even need 100, but i need you, mr. speaker, to at least allow a vote on the bipartisan bill that has come out of the senate, or i won't be here and you won't be here. >> does that mean, carrie, we are going to see a final nail in the coffin on the hastert rule? it seems like john boehner did it on -- he did it on the debt ceiling. he did it on sandy aid. could it be -- could his days be numbered? >> after the fiscal cliff. he promised he wouldn't do it again. he told his members. he has said that he won't do it again, but there's going to be pressure on a ton of issues, and, you know, for him it's going to be a personal decision. in some ways that's how it's framed in washington whether it comes down to whether or not there will be a continuation of the hastert rule. it's about speakership.
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>> in terms of let's say it's a rosier picture than we thought it would be on gun safety laws. i guess how much of that rosyness carries through on immigration. it could really go either way, i think. there is still a debate over the path to sit sflenship. >> as well as on immigration frankly. i'm not down there counting votes, and howard might be -- you put a number 30, 40 house republicans that would be for some sort of gun control. on immigration it almost seems like the numbers are closer to 100. especially in some of the conservative districts. that's really what's changed. yes, you know, conservatives -- the republicans probably are to the right side in terms of public polling on gun control. you look at immigration. it's miserable for them. that's where you can see the potential just demographically where they really feel like they need to move. immigration i would suspect and i think this is the view of the speaker's office and essential the view in the white house, you have a better prospect of an immigration bill than comprehensive gun bill. the gun bill will be piecemeal, as howard was mentioning. >> next up, energy reform. i'm going to be bullish because
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a body at rest tends to stay at rest... while a body in motion tends to stay in motion. staying active can actually ease arthritis symptoms. but if you have arthritis, staying active can be difficult. prescription celebrex can help relieve arthritis pain so your body can stay in motion. because just one 200mg celebrex a day can provide 24 hour relief for many with arthritis pain and inflammation. plus, in clinical studies, celebrex is proven to improve daily physical function so moving is easier. celebrex can be taken with or without food. and it's not a narcotic. you and your doctor should balance the benefits with the risks. all prescription nsaids, like celebrex, ibuprofen, naproxen and meloxicam have the same cardiovascular warning. they all may increase the chance of heart attack or stroke, which can lead to death. this chance increases if you have heart disease or risk factors such as high blood pressure or when nsaids are taken for long periods. nsaids, including celebrex,
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increase the chance of serious skin or allergic reactions or stomach and intestine problems, such as bleeding and ulcers, which can occur without warning and may cause death. patients also taking aspirin and the elderly are at increased risk for stomach bleeding and ulcers. do not take celebrex if you've had an asthma attack, hives, or other allergies to aspirin, nsaids or sulfonamides. get help right away if you have swelling of the face or throat, or trouble breathing. tell your doctor your medical history. and find an arthritis treatment for you. visit celebrex.com and ask your doctor about celebrex. for a body in motion. >> northeast is already feeling a massive and possibly record breaking winter storm. the weather channel's eric fish ser in boston. what's the latest? >> hi there, alex. as we've been broadcasting
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really things will pick up this afternoon, deteriorate, and we'll see incredible snow rates here in the city. they've asked everyone to be off the roads by noon. we're past that point, so hopefully travel has ceased. all mass transit here in the city, is all suspended at 3:30 this afternoon, and we don't expect it to sdart again until monday. for a lot of people here with over two feet of snow possible in downtown boston, you're going to be inside or at least you're going to be stuck without any travel through today, through tomorrow, and maybe into sunday as well. hopefully a lot of folks have a good book. i did talk to a couple of people out here, and thief had their flights canceled. they are trapped in the city for at least a couple of days. they said the airlines told them maybe monday we can get you out of town. they've had over 3,000 cancellations. a significant storm in a place that does see big snowstorms, but this one may land in the top five, if want the top spot for the city of boston. alex, back to you. >> the weather channel's eric fisher. thank you. stay warm. howard wolfson, deputy mayor of new york, you have assured me during the break that you got this one. >> we are prepared.
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the mayor is prepared. everybody in city government is prepared. the world's greatest snow-fighting force is ready and deployed. we don't expect to get as much snow as they are expecting in boston. it's going to begin heavily around 5:00 tonight and go through overnight. we've got 250,000 tons of salt ready to be deployed. >> that's a lot of salt. >> it's a lot of salt. we've got 2,200 trucks that are going to be out on the streets deploying that salt. making sure that your commute home will be relatively smooth. it's going to be a lot of snow, and people will have to deal with that when it comes and not everything will be perfect, but we are absolutely ready and prepared and we will do our typical great job. >> if the deputy mayor thing doesn't work out, may i suggest meteorologist? >> absolutely. >> you're very good at it. you're very good at it. coming after the break, former clintoniam is a man without a network, but morris isn't the only fongs newser who has been shown the door. can the right-wing purge the
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something. you're despised by the grassroots, and let me tell your donors something. stop wasting your money." >> never one to sit on the sidelines, the rush-inator said some of the strong-arm tactics were backfiring. >> the newspaper article about karl rove's intention is only serving to unite the tea party in ways even now it hasn't been. right now there is a unity and an energy maybe just short of a rebirth going on." >> that's right. a rebirth of the tea party. as a reminder, a few months ago karl rove was the evil architect trying to take down president obama. way, way, way back in september obama campaign manager jim messina wrote to supporters, "we recently learned karl rove is rounding up the most powerful republican donors to give all they've got to beat barack obama." fast forward to the present, and karl rove is the evil architect
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trying to take down fellow republicans. in a new campaign pitch, iowa tea party favorite and senate wannebe steve king, friend, i'm under attack and i urgently need your help to fight back. karl rove and his army have launch aid crusade against me." the backlash on the right sent rove skamperring back for a tea party apology tour. >> what crossroads has been doing is spending a lot of money on behalf of tea party candidates. we've spent over $30 million on behalf of tea party senate candidates and over $25 million for tea party house candidates. >> but the intra-party purge seems far from over. one high profile republican strategist, who refused to be named in order to avoid inflaming the party he wants so silence, says there is a deliberate effort by party leaders to lib marginalize the cranks, haters, and bigots. there has to be a lot of cleaning out. >> can we ask you who that republican strategist was. it is notable he wants to remain
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anonymous. not just because he wants to be effective in the clearing of the underbrush, but also because look what happens when you suggest there are some crazies in the republican party. >> it's going to be hard for what rove is doing, and i think rush limbaugh has a point in terms of what the affect of this might be. you are already seeing in iowa, steve king who is a member of congress, and he wants to run for the senate, and there's a lot of quotes out there that are not going to play well in a general election, but already he is trying to capitalize on this, raise money off of what karl rove -- he is their first target. i'm -- i mean, two cycles ago the national republicans senatorial committee played a part in trying to deal with senate primaries. it didn't work out so well. i think i'm correct in thinking that christine o'donnell came out of that process because mike haskell was favored. you know, republican base in delaware didn't like that. they chose christine o'donnell. that didn't work out so well. last cycle they chose not to get
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involved in primaries, and they still had a challenge. >> they chose not to get involved with todd akin until the last minute when they then gave todd akin money. >> the conservatives are learning that it's fun and effective to vilify karl rove. you can get a lot of mileage out of that. i think one reason it won't work is that establishment candidates are already well funded. high roller republicans give money to them, and karl rove piling on more high roller money into those campaigns buys them a little bet more advertising, but advertising is not going to be what decides these primaries. >> you think the tea party is out of the cage? it cannot be put down. any efforts otherwise -- >> nobody puts the tea party -- >> the tea party in the corner. >> yeah, "dirty dancing wroish ". >> i thought it was pretty striking, right, karl rove this week in the "new york times" reports, you know, the super pact is readying its engines and days later karl rove is out there with a white board, howard, pointing at just how much money. >> you need a white board. >> without even asking for one. >> and its super pact.
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>> super pacts are fun. i can attest. >> there is -- there is fear. i mean, from the establishment republican base -- not base, but moderate republicans who want to move the party forward. >> very much so. the republicans know pretty much that if they had gotten all of the candidates that they wanted out of primaries in the last couple of cycles, they would number control of the senate. i mean, they were losing senate seats that they would have won because they got the wrong party, the more extreme -- the wrong candidate out of the primary, and they wanted to avoigt that going forward. the question is whether or not they'll be able to do it and they know very well that not only does a todd akin sort of result in a loss in missouri, but even worse, he infects other races around the country, and every other republican then has to get -- will get asked questions about, well, todd akin said this about rape. what do you believe? so the problem is not just in that particular state or that particular dedicate. it infects the entire party, and in some sense that's what
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they're trying to deal with. they do not want the party defined by the todd akins. it's bad enough that they're going to lose their own seats and directs, but they can't have them branding the entire -- in the entire party. you know, this is going to be a fight between the two wings of the party. this is what happens when you suffer a loss. now two consecutive losses in presidential contests. the circular fire squads form, and it gets ugly. >> let me read, hans, a quote from steve deace. >> in that order sfwloosh i might reverse them. >> you're from bloomberg. moving on. steve deace writes how do beat karl rove in his own game. there is now an out in the open civil war within the republican party, and most of the grassroots patriots i talk to are just fine with that. the gop establishment is so hated by its own base that increasingly more and more of its grassroots have -- milk
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toast john boehner type of republican. >> i don't know how different the fight is this time versus when it was like rockefeller versus nixon, when it was, like -- when you are goldwater and rockefeller. i don't know the traditional split in the republican party between true bleefrz, evenitis las vegasests. these splits have been there. what's fun now is there's so much money piling in. >> god help us when karl rove is in rockefeller. >> yes, exactly. and i would say, you know, howard, we talked about this a little bit. the parallel in terms of democrats 20 years ago and the formation of the dlc, the democratic leadership committee, the sort of policies of bill clinton, it's different. i mean, there was a sense that it would come together and change on policy, and i will read this. bonnie jindal quote. it has caused republicans to take this very, very seriously. i don't think it's just a marketing change. i don't think it's just cosmetic changes. it's going to require some serious changes, not in principles, but in the way we talk and act. wait. it's going to -- it's not cosmetic, but it's only
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cosmetic. >> you are so right. in the 1980s, the 1907s and 1980s, the democratic party was engaged in these kind of fudz sxshgt left versus the right. nobody knew how that would end up. what eventually solved it was a set of policy proposals that move the party to the center and that most of the people in the party could embrace, and that eventually the american people came to embrace when they elected bill clinton. you have not seen the republican version of the dlc. you have not seen republican think tanks generating ideas that are designed to appeal to americans in the center. what you are seeing is a lot of marketing strategies, a lot of imageing wars, but not a war of ideas, and that's really in some sense what the republicans need to do. they're not going to take advice from me, but they need to have their kind of dlc moment. they need to have a debate around ideas. not just one candidate being, you know, so-called crazier than another or more to the right of the other, but a real battle around ideas to appeal to the center. >> i mean, i would say when you talk about the outside groups
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that are helping the ball push the ball forward, you have jim demint at the heritage foundation. he is not exactly going to be a voice for sort of moderate reform within the party, right, carrie? >> no. he is taking that over. you know, to further the work he was doing in the senate, which was, you know, among some of the most conservative ideas and efforts around, so, yeah, the heritage foundation, which came off of the individual mandate for health care. you know, good two decades ago. ing that became the foundation of health care. that was the heritage foundation. i don't think we would see that same kind of idea coming out underneath. >> conservatives have attached themselves. the establishment of the party attached itself to the tea party movement, and it's very hard to untether yourself from that movement. especially when, as you point out, the objections are kind of cosmetic. they're aesthetic. they're not disagreeing with them about core substance. the dlc wing of the democratic party and the liberal wing was -- >> it was profound. >> it's like coyote ugly.
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they have to chew their own arm off to get out of bed with that. >> they've gone from dirty dancing to "coyote ugly." >> oh, wow. we have to leave it there. howard wolfson has to go. >> going to snow. has to shovel notice snoes. >> i am going to be shoveling snow right now. >> howard wolfson, deputy mayor, thank you as always for joining us. >> happy to be with you. >> an invaluable resource. republicans zigzag on the sequester. we will discuss the gop's budget cut flip-flop when chris hayes joins the panel just ahead. (dog) larry,larry,larrryyy. why take exercise so seriously,when it can be fun? push-ups or sprints? what's wrong with fetch? or chase?
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"new york times" columnist paul krugman is not a fan of the automatic budget cuts known as the sequester, and apparently bill clinton agrees. >> the debt problem can'ting solved right now by conventional austerity measures, and that's why paul krugman is right when he keeps talking about all these -- everybody that's tried austerity in a time of no growth has wound up cutting revenues even more than they cut spending because you just get into the downward spiral and drag the country back into recession. >> to cut or not to cut when we go up now with chris hayes. [ male announcer ] pearls. hairbands. and now hot pink toes. seems tough for a tough dog like duke. but when it has anything to do with gwen, he's putty in her hands. for a love this strong, duke's family only feeds him iams. compared to other leading brands,
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>> i've watched them kick this can down the road.
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it's enough of it. it's time to act. >> 20 years. roughly the amount of time that john boehner has been in congress. the republicans doom's day message on spending rarely, if ever, mentions the serious damage done to the nation's credit cart during the bush years. here to talk sequester and our neverending debt-mageddon crisis. here's our suggest called "up now." >> chris, you have paul krugman on your show this weekend. >> indeed. >> he add slow indicates that we need to keep kicking the can down the road because the alternative, which is austerity, is a failure in europe and would be an adject -- >> it would be -- >> kicking the can is the most underrated policy in all of washington. if the alternative to kicking the can down the road is drinking a can full of poison, it's much better to kick the can down the road. there's this desire on the part of some commentators and the
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part of special interests to impose pain. there is this entire protestant story that has been written about the final crisis, which is that we were way ward, we were bad and sinful, and we let things get loose and out of control, and now we have to -- >> all these poor and low income people getting their food stamps. snoo people lying on mortgages, everything went crazy, and now we to put ourselves in the virtuous restraint of cuts and austerity. it's an extremely moralist narrative, but it doesn't make any economic sense. it doesn't make any political sense, right. there is no constituency for it other than a relatively small group of extremely powerful and well heeled interests who would like to see austerity imposed. >> what's been interesting, franklin, is that the argument over sec west rags. now the republicans are saying you cannot make these defense cuts because we're going to lose one million jobs, and it's like light bulb. these cuts cost jobs. why does that logic not flow to the other side? >> so rich when the defense lobbyists come into the white house and are teaming up with
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the -- on mccain's side of the argument, which is historically the case. defense spending has been one of the drivers of the economy. why that logic? it's called weaponized p. doesn't prevail down the road? i'm sure it's not very hard to figure out why that is. i mean, those are the parts of the government that they're trying to destroy. >> the other part is i think we have a tend si to view the fights that we're having with the budget over fights that are between austerity on one hand, but that's not the way the political coalitions work out. if you are consistent on it, you shouldn't want any tax hikes either, right? the fight is over people's policies. people have policies that have priorities because the intl groups and collisions thief assembled politically because of their idealogical principles, right, who these things will benefit, it and then they mask them in the language of what is cyclically appropriate or inappropriate, right? >> even on sequestration they've
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changed their mind. now sequestration, we might do it. >> i love when they bring this up during the hagel hearing and they talk about sequestration, and they go the witness and talking about what a disaster sequestration would be for the defense budget. if you just arrived from another country or mars you would be like who are the monsters who came up with the sequestration idea? who could have possibly voted for this thing? it is the people sitting that crafted it. >> the ironies speak like a birthday cake. unfortunately, we have to leave it there. we are out of time. >> can we kick the can? >> we are going to kick the can down the road. do not forget to catch chris and paul krugman this weekend. "up" is on tomorrow and every weekend and sundays with host at 8:00 a.m. eastern. chris hayes, thank you, as always, and thanks to the rest of our panel. franklin, carrie, and hans. that is all for now. i'll see you back here monday at noon eastern, 9:00 a.m. pacific when i'm joined by ari, jonathan, jake, and lee gallagher. if you are snowed in or not, i'll be doing my best impression
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of lawrence o'donnell tonight when i guest host "the last word" at 10:00 p.m. eastern. p andrea mitchell reports is next. hey, our salads. [ bop ] [ bop ] [ bop ] you can do that all you want, i don't like v8 juice. [ male announcer ] how about v8 v-fusion. a full serving of vegetables, a full serving of fruit. but what you taste is the fruit. so even you... could've had a v8.
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